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Redefining Dementia
resources and helpful life experiences, the podcast will look to connect with the audience to provide helpful and meaningful takeaways.
Redefining Dementia
Music Therapy in Dementia Care with Jennifer Buchanan
On this episode, we welcome Jennifer Buchanan, Music Therapist and the founder of JB Music Therapy, who shares with us the art of harnessing this power to enrich the lives of those living with dementia. Throughout the episode, Jennifer shares impactful examples of how music therapy provides solace and sparks joy when words sometimes fail.
Jennifer relays how offering music is not just entertainment but also a lifeline to memories and emotions. Her practical tips and insights aim to guide caregivers and families in creating musical experiences that are as impactful as they are meaningful, highlighting the importance of consistency and overcoming the hurdles that technology can present, ensuring that everyone, regardless of their abilities, can access the therapeutic benefits of music.
Join us as we celebrate the resilience music therapy fosters across all walks of life, at all ages, and how music remains a sure friend in the journey through dementia.
Links & Resources:
Jennifer's LinkedIn
JB Music Therapy
Jennifer's Website
Jennifer's Book Publications
Canadian Association of Music Therapists
Link to the video Jennifer references in the episode
About our Hosts:
https://www.personcentreduniverse.com/about/
Welcome to Redefining Dementia. I'm Ashley King and I'm Daphne Noonan. Thank you for joining us. We are your co-hosts as well as the co-founders of Person Centered Universe, where we help you provide person-centered dementia care at home, at work or in your community. Through the Redefining Dementia podcast, we are striving toward a better world for those affected by dementia by sharing resources and insights from experts around the world.
Speaker 2:When consuming resources or media about dementia, the focus is often on the challenges, stigma and fear that may accompany a diagnosis of dementia. This podcast seeks to shift that narrative to focus on and celebrate living well with dementia and what that means for caregivers. Through the sharing of stories, resources and helpful life experiences. We hope to provide you with helpful and meaningful takeaways for your journey ahead.
Speaker 1:A special note before we begin. This information shared in this podcast is for educational purposes only. If you or someone you know is experiencing symptoms of dementia, we encourage you to seek medical advice from a qualified healthcare professional.
Speaker 3:Thank you for joining us on this episode of the Redefining Dementia podcast. Today we have the great pleasure of introducing you to speaker author and music therapist Jennifer B Cannon. Jennifer is the founder and visionary architect of JB Music Therapy. Jbmt, a music therapy company that has been instrumental in the implementation of hundreds of music therapy programs across Canada for 30 years and that has thrice been nominated for the Community Impact Award by her local Chamber of Commerce. Jbmt currently employs a diverse team of 20 certified music therapists serving all ages in medical education and community care settings. Combining her music therapy experience with her MBA, jennifer's company continues to trailblaze the music and health domain, partnering with the National Music Center, health authorities and also contributing to research with global neuroscientists and researchers. Jennifer has also been presented with multiple awards for her amazing work in this field.
Speaker 3:During this incredibly inspiring and impactful episode, jennifer shares the powerful personal experience that led her to the field of music therapy and when she realized the power of music in breaking down barriers of all kinds. We love when our guests share their narratives. Jennifer also shares practical ways to implement music therapy both in community and within the home. We look forward to sharing this rich discussion with you and how the stories and feelings connected to music are so critical in one's life and how music can be our sure friend, no matter what stage of life we are at. Enjoy.
Speaker 4:Okay, welcome, jennifer. We're so excited to have you on the podcast. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 5:Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 4:So our first question, let's dive right in. Can you share with us how music therapy is an impactful intervention for someone living with dementia and what effects it has on the brain?
Speaker 5:Absolutely. You know this term, music therapy has been around for a very long time and since the 50s has become a profession. So we are, if you can imagine that. Music therapists are going to hospitals and continuing care centers, but also people's homes as part of an allied health team, and their roles and responsibilities are to bring music and opportunities and engaging in that music with the person they're about to work with.
Speaker 5:So many of the people that we're being asked to work with within the community of those with dementia would be that they have started feeling perhaps isolated.
Speaker 5:There may have been a bit of fear that has gone along with that. They could be getting feeling agitated, the family's having a hard time connecting to one another in a meaningful way and and they're having to redefine what that way is going to be. And then there's going to be other things, like just creating something that feels lighter, more fun, having some some as some purposeful leisure, and so as a music therapist, we listen to that all those incredible goals and we quickly put together a comprehensive plan of what we can be doing with that individual through the use of music, which, as a sidebar, music does a lot of the heavy lifting. We all know that just intuitively, by by when we listen to music and how it affects us. So we go in with this already amazing resource and then we have the training and and the expertise in all these different techniques interventions, how we can put together a very specific plan and we call it a session, and so go in and provide this session very customized for that particular individual and what they require.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. So thank you so much for that and I want to. I think we started with a sort of a almost like a basic question to help ground us in a bit of the science. But, if it's okay with you, I was doing a little reading about you and your story and I think it would be really powerful, if you're open to that is to share with our listeners your story of, like your personal story with your grandfather, and I think hearing you just describe sort of the technical aspect of music therapy but then like the organic beginnings of your interest in this field, is really powerful I think. Aw, thanks for asking.
Speaker 5:I feel so fortunate that I have such a story. I was a tween and my grumpy granddad had always been grumpy my entire life and he was someone that I didn't have a connection to. And when I was a tween we learned that he had a second major major stroke and no longer able to walk, no longer able to talk and was placed in a Surrey Memorial extended care hospital in British Columbia, and we got the call as a family to go in and to visit him, and I can remember just not understanding at all what this was gonna be like. I'd never now all of us have been that are in this domain of care, we've been to places, but this was the very first time, and I can remember feeling awkward and uncomfortable and not sure where to look and there was a screaming lady down the hall and a wandering guy and granddad wasn't able to walk or talk and my granny was fussing around the space and all these things were happening. There was lots of nursing, but there was no other services provided at that time, because this is so many years ago.
Speaker 5:And so when granny said something so incredible and incredibly simple, which was Jenny, would you learn granddad's favorite song and come and play it next week. It sounded just so simple but it just wasn't easy. It wasn't an easy thing for my brain to put together. Like in that moment I remember going granddad has a favorite song.
Speaker 5:I didn't know grumpy people had favorite songs. Is this a place where you could actually come and sing, like, are people gonna like that? It didn't seem like a place you just take a guitar and start singing and all those sorts of things were happening. And so it was so impactful that first Friday, going in and singing my granddad's favorite song, which was White Cliffs of Dover, and the screaming lady starting to sing and the wandering guy coming and sitting beside me and hanging out and granny starting to cry, granddad started to cry, people started to hug. There was all the things happening that we now know that music can really bring into fruition. And it happened. The connections were happening and I was a broody teenager and I couldn't believe what I was experiencing and how lucky that it would lead to my Friday nights transforming from watching TV and at the time watching Dallas to now sitting in this room with my new friends and music that also became all of our friends.
Speaker 2:That is so amazing.
Speaker 4:Wow, what an incredible way to honor your grandfather as well.
Speaker 2:It's, yeah, it's. I mean those of us, as you say, Jennifer, that have been in this space of healthcare, aging care and having a little bit more of an understanding of the technical side of, let's say, why things work. It just also never ceases to amaze me, though, that like to understand, just on the broader scope, just how music connects us in the world through relationships and just through so many levels, and that's such a beautiful story to also to illustrate as well that music defines us throughout our lives and, through different stages of our lives, all of us. We can't sort of separate from music, right?
Speaker 2:It's just is, it's all, it's part of our lives, and so I wonder if you might be able to speak to a little bit more specifically and you don't have to be as super technical or nuanced in this, but just generally how music therapy can play a role and does play a role in someone's life as they're going through, say, a journey with dementia and different stages and things that come along with that.
Speaker 5:You know I like what you were just saying that we have essentially all had a musical life, we all have a personal soundtrack, but it's also generations old, from the very first beating drum. There is no place on the planet that we know of that doesn't have music, and so what I feel we can surmise is that music is essentially a part of our DNA, is a part of our humanity, and so when we're working with any individual, including those with dementia, their relationship to music and the stories associated to that and the people associated to that is really critical within the music therapy setting. So you know, when we take these moments to not just spend time with the individual directly, that we're going to be singing with and playing instruments with, and laughing with and reminiscing with and asking, you know, slightly provocative questions that they answer because music takes them right into the moment that they are literally in. As we're creating that music, Not only are we doing that, but we're also working with the families and the caregivers to help feed us with the information we need, like what has been some of the music that is important to you as a family.
Speaker 5:You know what are some of the most significant memories and it may not always work, but it often works when we bring that now into our current context of living with dementia, that we can explore together the feelings we had at that time and we are looking to provide for that individual a sense of safety and security and to bring that into the wholeness, their strengths, that they're vibrant and alive and all those feelings we need as human beings into the dementia context, dare I say, a little bit biased. I feel that there's nothing more efficient and effective than what music has the capacity to do and with a therapist right there, we're going to ensure that happens.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I was just thinking that, as you were saying, I don't think it is bias. I think in my experience as a practitioner I'm not a music therapist, my background is in more recreation therapy approaches but there is no other tool that I have ever witnessed that can break down communication barriers and emotional barriers, and even physical barriers in some cases, like to helping someone become holistically represented, I guess, and connecting back to themselves.
Speaker 4:And I think too, it's just amazing and incredible how it can truly span the life cycle. It's not just for one group of people, it can be anyone along the continuum, from young to old, and that's what's amazing. Even we've been lucky enough to see kids and elders actually connect through music in a number of different ways.
Speaker 5:Yeah, the intergenerational opportunities. I'm looking forward to seeing more of those. You know, as some people may be feeling that the world's becoming more polarized, I tend to be still an optimistic and very hopeful that a lot of the things that are being created in our lives from even the digital music and the access to digital music, with some of the new technologies that are coming forward, to family members recognizing that things like dementia and a variety of other health considerations are a part of all of our lives, it's just this is it? And exactly what you're saying. The journey of aging well starts the moment we're born and we don't know what's going to strike us, blindside us slowly happen to us Like we have no idea what's going to happen in those moments and that music can be our sure friend, is just again. I just feel so grateful to be in that position that that's where I have an opportunity to really dig deep and live.
Speaker 2:I love that music can be our sure friend. That's such a great point.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's so impactful, and I think this segues us well nicely into our next question, because music can be so universal and it can be so individual as well. Do you have any practical tips for caregivers so that they can provide whether it be music therapy techniques or reminiscent music, the use of music to support individuals, any techniques in both the care setting but as well at home that they could use or employ?
Speaker 5:For sure. I think the very first basic step is to put together a playlist for that particular person, and it doesn't even have to just be one playlist, but it can be playlist number one, and that one would be through as much seeking out from those family members, previous caregivers, others who have known that interview, and just try to collect some of the music. The next step, of course, is, as you're playing that music with the individual at a pretty decent volume, so you can actually feel it and you're going to know when a song is hitting the right chord, when it toast starts to tap or singing starts to happen. So you're going to pay attention for the music king that is going to happen from the individual and then you can notice which songs are the strongest anchors. And so the first playlist can be quite broad and a real variety, and I don't also want to say that the family is going to know everything. It's always surprising to us when we go back to a family and say, oh, they were really, really engaged in this Bobby Darren song and we're dancing and we're singing all at the same time and they go. I don't know, they liked Bobby Darren, so we can hear those things, but isn't that true? There's lots of music you and I have listened to that you know people in our life might go. Really, I had no idea. You really, you know, enjoyed Metallica. I had no idea. Yeah, listen to it in my car all the time when the kids are at home, yeah, so it could be all sorts of things right. So I think that's the first step is have a really good, robust playlist, built with intention, not just a generalized one like a genre that's a pre done, actually spend time creating it, curating it for that person and that's also going to connect you to them as well, and finding certain anchors and putting that together.
Speaker 5:The next thing to definitely to consider is just the equipment the equipment when working with that individual. Can they hear the music? Is that the right speaker? Is the equalizer on correct? Does it have the right highs? Does it have the right lows? And this is when you can have great conversations with all those smarties out there.
Speaker 5:You know, wherever you're buying your speaker and saying listen, I'm working with an elder and when we are older, our hearing changes. It just does and the little hairs in our ears begin to flatten out and certain tones are not. We don't hear certain tones. You know, the older we get, the ears can get tired and, unlike glasses, we don't really have anything in between, just sort of losing a bit of the overtones and getting hearing aids. Like we don't really have too much in between there, except for really good speakers and really good headphones.
Speaker 5:And then it's also testing what works well, like does someone feel good wearing those over the ear headphones? Do some people like earbuds? Lots of people don't like the earbuds at all. Or is it just having a speaker where you can all enjoy music, but if the headphones are working, best getting a splitter so both of you can be listening through the headphones together. So you're still in community.
Speaker 5:But just ensuring there's the right equipment available. And I like to also remind people here that not everyone has access, not everyone has an individual to spend time with them. Who's going to help them with this access? Technology has made music inaccessible to a lot of people. A lot of people still don't have their old records or vinyl and the record player that they're used to remember the huge stereo thing and all those things. So so, paying attention to just having the right equipment. So you've got your playlist, you've got the sound source that the music's going to come out of. That's going to work best.
Speaker 5:And then the third hot tip for today, I think, is designated time, consistent time, and I suggest picking a time that feels as natural as it possibly can and exploring it there. So it could be the 30 minutes before dinner starts getting activated. It could be that time, it could be first thing in the morning, just to you know, to start setting a tone of looking forward to the day. And this is going to be our playlist that we listen to in the morning. Maybe there's two 15 minute moments. It doesn't have to be long, it just has to be intentional and in the moment and sitting together and actually experiencing the music together, not looking at our phones, not also reading a book, but staying in the music, and anywhere from three to 15 to 30 minutes would be excellent.
Speaker 2:Wow, those are really practical, amazing suggestions and it's also so true that you, you know, when you said about technology having made music inaccessible to some, yeah, that's a that's really powerful and so thank you for sharing that because I think that will you know, that's really profound for people who are trying to get started and like to actually understand that sometimes it will require a lovely person that can help to facilitate and really help people to gain access as the first step.
Speaker 2:I really loved all of those suggestions and I think I'm kind of going back a little bit to the earlier part of our conversation, but you know we've talked about, you know, music being kind of omnipresent throughout our lives, and even hearing you sharing some of those sort of technical and practical tips also can, I think our listeners will probably find it affirming also in some cases, to understand that there is a science behind it, is it is worth the effort that is undertaken to facilitate something like this and to put the time in to be, you know, consistent and whatnot, because, as especially as folks who are caring for someone and they don't have a healthcare background, this is something that actually is scientific, that they can do, that will really. It is proven that it can help right night, so anyway.
Speaker 5:Absolutely, and you know, as you're talking, I you know all the dementias are slightly different. They all affect, you know, some are more of a global brain disease, some are more situated in particular areas. But music is always a global brain process and there's no other activity we know of that lights up more areas of the brain simultaneously than when we listen to music. That is making a great impact in our life. That matters to us. So taking the time to actually find those anchor pieces is time well spent.
Speaker 2:And very soul filling for the person who is the caregiver or the care part right, because it's it's often leads to, you know, successful outcome, or you know one of those all the magic moments and yeah, so I'm sure, I'm sure I'm going to ask you, know, I'm sure I'm. The next question I'm going to ask you is is you probably have more than 1000 examples, but I wonder if you'd like to share with us one of your favorite examples of how you have seen music benefiting someone who is walking a journey with dementia.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so we may be introduced to people at different stages of their dementia where they're at. My favorite stages are when people are feeling the grumpiest and maybe that's because of my times with granddad and you can see that music is able to soften us and engage us in a right way, which not only soothes the individual themselves but also the family. It's so hard when your loved one is just feeling. Life is so difficult all the time, and so I was working with this 97 year old war veteran. It was near the end-ish of his life. We didn't know that at the time, but he was also feeling uncomfortable a lot and he was grumpy, still communicating and could still have a real sassy sense of humor when he wanted to bring that out.
Speaker 5:And his daughter, who had had music therapy in another place of her life with one of her children, wondered gosh, would music therapy help dad? He's a little intolerable right now and we're trying to have some good, meaningful time, but he's getting very difficult. So she invited me to come out for his birthday and I walked in and honestly, all I had to do was show up with a guitar and all I had to do was sit in his proximity, barely close to him and all I had to do was strum a chord with a song that we knew he loved and he would just turned, made absolute eye contact. You could see his body physically begin to relax and he just put his head back and started singing along. And we would go on for a good 90 minutes.
Speaker 5:Music was doing the heavy lifting.
Speaker 5:I was just a vessel in the moment of what was happening there. The family started singing the songs they knew. It was one of those connection moments and then I started seeing him on a regular basis and what I can share with your listeners afterwards is a short video of this afterwards because we had a short video done in a future session and you will be able to see just that relief, not only for him but for his daughter, and that he was able to have some conversation in between the songs and his strengths were realized and what we saw over time. I would go on to visit him for the duration for the rest of his life, which ended up to be just under a year. But again, we didn't know that at the time, but we saw that calming and we started introducing more music throughout his week, not just with the music therapist, but he had homework and the family had some homework and the caregivers had some homework and we did see this real sort of ease into his life that began to flow through making it easier on everybody.
Speaker 4:Wow, thank you. Wow, that's even emotional for me, I'm sure. I can only imagine what that must have been like while you were practicing and seeing the benefit.
Speaker 2:Thank you for sharing that story, and what a gift to be able to share the video as well with our listeners, so we absolutely will do that. That's some, yeah, very secret moments that become part of the journey when you're using music. Hey, yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah, very intimate, right when it gets to that level. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think you've highlighted or touched on something really impactful as well that we often think of the person getting up, they're dancing, they're singing, that's how they're expressing themselves and that they enjoy that music. But sometimes it's a very opposite effect. But it's really that calming, soothing, very minimal change. You have to look really hard to be able to see how that music is impacting that individual.
Speaker 5:That's right and that's part of the caregivers. Now New role is to look at the nuanced responses that are coming their way. You know, because, again, a music therapist is often just with you for a half hour or an hour a week. But use them to say what should I be looking for? You know, they are very skilled to give you some ideas, you know, and to say you know, in particular, your dad will do this and they can tell you what it is and that can also translate into other things. But again, you know, when we think of this progressive disease, it also changes over time and sometimes it's very, very slow and sometimes it's very, very fast. And so the role of a music therapist is to to assist you with coming up with the best plans that you can partake in as a family.
Speaker 2:And you, you, you just actually provided another really great practical suggestion, I think unknowingly, but is that people who are caring for loved ones, or you know friends or relatives in the community and non informal healthcare settings? You know, again, one thing that might be an interesting resource is to reach out in your community to see if you know, finding a music therapist and even looking at you know a small amount of investment to work with a music therapist, like you say, to just practically set them up for success in that type of a journey, and your story is a really great example of that right.
Speaker 5:And you could do that also online. So if you, if you don't have we have 800 certified music therapists across Canada and if one is not in your community, sometimes that might feel inaccessible. Many now are working online and providing a session. You could even get a consult. You could say listen, I'm looking for a very specific consult.
Speaker 2:So yeah, wonderful, and I know we will share things in the page for the podcast after. But is there and again we're going to. We have two final questions that we want to go through with you, but maybe this is a good place for us to ask you if there's any kind of quick links or the Canadian Music Therapy Association or a place where someone could go if they were looking for a music therapist, or just more information. Is there a database or something like that?
Speaker 5:Absolutely so. Yes, for more information, you can go to musictherapyca and also I just you know, when you're in your search engine, put music therapy and your city, or music therapy in your region, or music therapy in your province, and you'll also get a variety of others and you could even put in dementia and find those that specialize in that area. We really would love to see everyone accessing a music therapist, just like they would any other health care provider, as a part of the care that we're giving to those living with dementia.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as you say, you know, music therapists are allied health professionals, right? So that's right.
Speaker 4:And you've really been successfully and I'll kind of this sideways well into the next question but you've really been successfully providing support to individuals in a multitude of care setting through your company, jd Music Therapy. So amazing.
Speaker 5:We're in our 33, 33rd year and it is in some ways a very generalized practice. You know, our youngest client is two months older, our oldest is 102, or more, I think actually 103 right now, and we do serve a variety of different areas. So we we focus a lot on rehabilitation or counseling or wellness, but the populations are vast. You know, I personally have specialized within mental health and corrections. That is my area, that I continue to provide service. But many on my team are working, you know, with the little kiddos who are struggling with expressing themselves and feeling and they're facing some anxieties, and so we're working with them. And we were working with youth at risk. We're working with those on neural rehab units. So it's been very exciting over the last three decades just to see the expansion of where people feel music therapy fits and makes a difference and what we're learning is everywhere. So, which is really exciting, and and we're going to be seeing a lot more specializations, I believe, as as time goes on- Absolutely.
Speaker 4:And so how would you personally, jennifer, through your practice and through your work as a leader in the music therapy field, like to contribute to redefining the experience of living with dementia?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I've been doing a lot of thinking about this. I when I first heard the term living with dementia, it was a game changer for me, because it's not just living with dementia, it's living. I just did a presentation on the weekend for burn survivors. It's living with burns, it's living with scars, it's living with dementia, it's living with, you know, cancer remission. It's living with this. And whatever we're living with, whatever it is, I believe music reminds us going back to what I said before that we're whole. It reminds us we're whole. It reminds us we're human. It reminds us we have strengths. It reminds us we have passions. It reminds us that we love something. It reminds us all those moments and, regardless of where we are and what we're living with, we all need hope.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, music's also very efficient and effective with bringing us hope and just as you were speaking, I couldn't help but think, Jennifer, music can be something that helps us change the emphasis to the word living like living with whatever it is. Love that.
Speaker 5:That's going to be my takeaway today. Love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really like you said about feeling whole right as opposed to carrying something, is living with you. Anyway, we cry all the time. This might be the first time I've openly cried on the podcast.
Speaker 4:Yeah, this has just been such a delight, and so we do have one last question that we ask all of our listeners and I'll ask it so that Daphne can regroup what is your hope for the future for people affected by dementia?
Speaker 5:For the person themselves. It's the same hope I've always had that they feel safe and welcomed, welcomeed in our society and our families, in our lives. So that's what I hope for with them. What I hope for the rest of us is that we contribute to that in some way, that we ensure the safety and ensure that all the people living with dementia are always welcomed.
Speaker 4:Wow, wow, wow. I love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you are. We can't reiterate enough, jennifer, just how much, how blessed and how grateful we are to have had the opportunity to spend an hour with you today, and I think our listeners are going to be very moved by this, so thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we really appreciate it. Thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation.
Speaker 5:Thank you for having me. Oh, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:It was beyond an honor to be able to spend an hour or so learning from and connecting with Jennifer Buchanan. We have always had a tremendous admiration for Jennifer's work as a pioneer and a leader in the Canadian music therapy scene. Ashley and I have both found a deep connection to the use of music and care contexts throughout our years working with individuals who are impacted by dementia. While we are not music therapists, we have both been privileged to facilitate and co-design countless quality of life initiatives related to music and, each time, to witness the transformational impact it can have. There are so many takeaways from this interview. However, I think the main theme that I would like to highlight for our listeners begins with a great quote from Jennifer, that is, that music can do a lot of the heavy lifting.
Speaker 2:If you are a care partner supporting a loved one who is living with dementia, music can be a vehicle to help ease feelings of isolation, anxiousness, difficulty communicating and hopelessness. Often we hear from care partners who feel helpless and they are not sure what they can do to ease the journey of a loved one who has received a diagnosis of dementia. Well, music is something you can do, something that you can be intentional about, and it will help For individuals who are living with dementia. Music can be a powerful wellness and healing tool. As Jennifer reminds us so poetically, music is simply part of our DNA. It is a scientifically proven method that improves wellness and heals us. Music can remind us that we are whole and it can connect us to ourselves and to our stories. I know that it has done this for me many times throughout my life. Thank you for listening to this very special episode. We sincerely hope that you are moved and possibly even inspired to begin considering how music can be a companion along your journey.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to this episode of the Redefining Dementia podcast. We hope that you have found this information helpful and inspiring. No matter where you find yourself in the dementia journey Whether you are a person living with dementia, a healthcare professional, family and friend, or a care provider or an ally, we aspire to shift the narrative and redefine what dementia means to you.
Speaker 2:This podcast was made possible by the New Horizons for Seniors program. Our music is written and produced by Scott Holmes, the podcast was produced by Janna Jones, and we'd like to offer a very special thanks to our affiliates at Lifelong Inspiration and, of course, to our amazingly talented and knowledgeable guests who gave of their time to share their expertise with us.
